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	<title>Comments on: Nothing below the belt &#8211; Proposed judo rule changes</title>
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	<link>http://extricate.org/2009/11/19/nothing-belo-the-belt-proposed-judo-rule-changes/</link>
	<description>A subtle blend of technical geekery, judo and the life of a football referee.</description>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://extricate.org/2009/11/19/nothing-belo-the-belt-proposed-judo-rule-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-989</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Jan 2011 01:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://extricate.org/?p=340#comment-989</guid>
		<description>And we wonder why ju jitsu and mma are taking all the kids away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And we wonder why ju jitsu and mma are taking all the kids away.</p>
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		<title>By: patrick mahon</title>
		<link>http://extricate.org/2009/11/19/nothing-belo-the-belt-proposed-judo-rule-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-493</link>
		<dc:creator>patrick mahon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 13:43:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://extricate.org/?p=340#comment-493</guid>
		<description>God help our sport. All the points earlier are excellent and correct. But some more points. None of the new rules come into effect until the 1st of May 2010. So we have until then to get rid of them. I spoke to Mr Barcos in Samoa along with Mr Barta. I expressed my disgust at the changes I pointed out that players who have been perfecting throws like Kata Guruma for the last 5 to 10 years will not be able to change and develop new throws and continue winning with such short notice. This is physically impossible. 
It also need&#039;s to be understood that from Jan 1st there is no shido, only a direct hansoku make for throws like Te Guruma, Tsuki nage, any form of kata Guruma even without using the hands, Any form us o ouchi gari using the hands. Ko Ouchi makikomi. Ko Chiki diaoshi and god only knows what a referee might think they see. 

In Samoa Mr Barcos told me he spoke to many international coaches and they all agreed with the changes. I told him he was full of BS. No coach I speak to agrees or understands what he is trying to do. Plus, did you all know that from the next world champs in japan a country can enter 2 players in each weight division. Now that was done back in the 60&#039;s &amp; early 70&#039;s. If that is not going backwards I don&#039;t know what is. Barcos is screwing up our sport.

I am starting a petition against these crazy rule changes. I need names and help. Please email me on patrickmahon4@gmail.com to have ur name included and I will be in touch. Save the sport and help athletes.
Patrick</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God help our sport. All the points earlier are excellent and correct. But some more points. None of the new rules come into effect until the 1st of May 2010. So we have until then to get rid of them. I spoke to Mr Barcos in Samoa along with Mr Barta. I expressed my disgust at the changes I pointed out that players who have been perfecting throws like Kata Guruma for the last 5 to 10 years will not be able to change and develop new throws and continue winning with such short notice. This is physically impossible.<br />
It also need&#8217;s to be understood that from Jan 1st there is no shido, only a direct hansoku make for throws like Te Guruma, Tsuki nage, any form of kata Guruma even without using the hands, Any form us o ouchi gari using the hands. Ko Ouchi makikomi. Ko Chiki diaoshi and god only knows what a referee might think they see. </p>
<p>In Samoa Mr Barcos told me he spoke to many international coaches and they all agreed with the changes. I told him he was full of BS. No coach I speak to agrees or understands what he is trying to do. Plus, did you all know that from the next world champs in japan a country can enter 2 players in each weight division. Now that was done back in the 60&#8242;s &amp; early 70&#8242;s. If that is not going backwards I don&#8217;t know what is. Barcos is screwing up our sport.</p>
<p>I am starting a petition against these crazy rule changes. I need names and help. Please email me on <a href="mailto:patrickmahon4@gmail.com">patrickmahon4@gmail.com</a> to have ur name included and I will be in touch. Save the sport and help athletes.<br />
Patrick</p>
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		<title>By: Marc Thompson</title>
		<link>http://extricate.org/2009/11/19/nothing-belo-the-belt-proposed-judo-rule-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-240</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Thompson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://extricate.org/?p=340#comment-240</guid>
		<description>Nice blog - it does highlight many issues I personally feel it can only be a combination IF the first attack gets a defensive reaction from Uke. We were looking at the Sode or Morate combos into a kata guruma style attack - it can flow very nicely but if teh first attack isn&#039;t reacted to then UKE shoudl be thrown, if tori is doing a combo REGARDLESS of uke&#039;s reaction then it is part of teh initial attack - or so our bar room jury decided. However thsi si n&#039;t covered in the IJF guidence. - Teh reaction to twitches again concerns me - and the only way I feel this will change is if twitches that are not acted on or dont have an element of kushi  are penalised as false attacks - again you could argue taht trying to get an opponent to react SO he is penalised is negative judo and against the spirt of the sport. This debate is going to rumble on and I just hope it has been tweeked adn sorted out by 2012 - which in competion cycles isn&#039;t that far away now!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice blog &#8211; it does highlight many issues I personally feel it can only be a combination IF the first attack gets a defensive reaction from Uke. We were looking at the Sode or Morate combos into a kata guruma style attack &#8211; it can flow very nicely but if teh first attack isn&#8217;t reacted to then UKE shoudl be thrown, if tori is doing a combo REGARDLESS of uke&#8217;s reaction then it is part of teh initial attack &#8211; or so our bar room jury decided. However thsi si n&#8217;t covered in the IJF guidence. &#8211; Teh reaction to twitches again concerns me &#8211; and the only way I feel this will change is if twitches that are not acted on or dont have an element of kushi  are penalised as false attacks &#8211; again you could argue taht trying to get an opponent to react SO he is penalised is negative judo and against the spirt of the sport. This debate is going to rumble on and I just hope it has been tweeked adn sorted out by 2012 &#8211; which in competion cycles isn&#8217;t that far away now!!</p>
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		<title>By: ems</title>
		<link>http://extricate.org/2009/11/19/nothing-belo-the-belt-proposed-judo-rule-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-239</link>
		<dc:creator>ems</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Nov 2009 04:30:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://extricate.org/?p=340#comment-239</guid>
		<description>(For what it’s worth, here’s my opinion)

Competitive Judo VS Recreational Judo
AKA
(Maximum effectiveness VS Maximum efficiency)?

For the purposes of this argument, ‘Efficient’ Judo refers to the 40 traditional throws of the Gokyo-no-Waza. ‘Effective’ Judo refers to all variations and new classified techniques.

Many of you by now will be aware of the new rules that were trialled at the recent IJF junior world championships. One rule in particular concerns me…

&quot;Leg Grips&quot;
All direct attacks with one or two hands or with one or two arms below the belt are not allowed.

PUNISHMENTS: First attack: - Shido
Second attack: - Hansokumake

It seems to me on face value that this has been adopted so that Judo tends back towards the ‘classical’, more ‘efficient’ style of fighting. I believe it’s important to first ask “What is competitive Judo?” What’s it about? Is it the same as recreational Judo? Should they be the same? The following is my own opinion.

Efficient Judo is about getting the maximum effect using a minimum amount of effort. This surely is the ideal for any athlete in any sport – to perform at the highest level with the greatest ease. This arguably, and in my opinion, is what should be encouraged as ‘mainstream’ Judo. In other words, the first port of call for all practitioners of Judo whatever the ultimate goal or ambition. It is this Judo that best highlights and best encourages the principles of Kuzushi (balance breaking), Tsukuri (positioning), and Kake (execution), as well as the basic principles of movement (for comprehensive coverage of the principles of movement, see Itsutsu-no-Kata).

It is here I’m likely to divide opinions…..

“I don’t believe that ‘classical’, ‘efficient’ Judo is always the most effective”

So, what’s effective Judo? The objective in any contest is to win. Judo contests are not an exception to this rule. There are some techniques (namely leg-grabs and pick-ups) that do require a greater expenditure of energy and are therefore less efficient – but seemingly more effective, otherwise they would not be used.

So what are the possible reasons for outlawing individual techniques or even groups of techniques?

Safety issues? In some cases, the safety of athletes is compromised (e.g. Kani-Basami – scissors technique) In such cases, it is justified to ban those techniques in accordance with the founding ethos of “mutual welfare and benefit”. Are leg-grabbing techniques dangerous? I’ve neither seen nor been given any evidence to suggest so. This begs the question “Why such harsh penalties?” As non-dangerous infringements, surely a Shido for each incident would suffice. A Hansoku-make for a second offence seems harsh in the most extreme sense of the word. One is not disqualified for pulling the lapel across the chin a second time, and this can injure the opponent.

Are they inefficient? NO! Less efficient perhaps but clearly more effective often enough to have become such a major part of competitive Judo.

Do they lower the standard of Judo? This is the argument I’ve heard most often. Consistent successful use of any technique requires full understanding of the principles of Kuzushi, Tsukuri, and Kake as well as an understanding of the principles of movement. Often, this might be subconscious understanding (this is true for all techniques) but it is understanding nevertheless.

I’ve always thought that it is the different styles of Judo that makes it so entertaining. It means that every competitor is forced to continuously adapt and evolve their Judo to stay on top. Surely this only results in increased understanding of each basic Judo principle and increased Judo intelligence. How could anyone argue that this leads to a decline in standard?

Should we split Judo in two? NO! Absolutely not! As I mentioned at the start, I think that everyone should start by learning what I refer to as ‘efficient’ Judo because it better highlights the important principles that will ease and support long-term Judo development. For those that do choose to compete, I think they should have access to additional classes that teach ‘effective’ Judo i.e. learning how to win. To re-iterate, learning how to win should be the next step up after learning efficient Judo.

What I think is needed is for coaches to be able to distinguish between AND incorporate into their teaching BOTH efficient and effective Judo – rather than choose one as opposed to the other.

P.S.
Of course, this whole argument neglects to include Luke&#039;s point. Often the initial attack can be so subtle that only the fighters can feel it. It would require a referee with an incredible knowledge of Judo movement, technique, and principles to always be able to recognise each and every situation that would allow leg-grabbing techniques. Surely a feint will count - otherwise we will soon see fighters feinting in order to bait the opponent to commit a leg-grabbing infringment!?! More tactics like this will result in even less tv friendly Judo.


(Just my opinions)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(For what it’s worth, here’s my opinion)</p>
<p>Competitive Judo VS Recreational Judo<br />
AKA<br />
(Maximum effectiveness VS Maximum efficiency)?</p>
<p>For the purposes of this argument, ‘Efficient’ Judo refers to the 40 traditional throws of the Gokyo-no-Waza. ‘Effective’ Judo refers to all variations and new classified techniques.</p>
<p>Many of you by now will be aware of the new rules that were trialled at the recent IJF junior world championships. One rule in particular concerns me…</p>
<p>&#8220;Leg Grips&#8221;<br />
All direct attacks with one or two hands or with one or two arms below the belt are not allowed.</p>
<p>PUNISHMENTS: First attack: &#8211; Shido<br />
Second attack: &#8211; Hansokumake</p>
<p>It seems to me on face value that this has been adopted so that Judo tends back towards the ‘classical’, more ‘efficient’ style of fighting. I believe it’s important to first ask “What is competitive Judo?” What’s it about? Is it the same as recreational Judo? Should they be the same? The following is my own opinion.</p>
<p>Efficient Judo is about getting the maximum effect using a minimum amount of effort. This surely is the ideal for any athlete in any sport – to perform at the highest level with the greatest ease. This arguably, and in my opinion, is what should be encouraged as ‘mainstream’ Judo. In other words, the first port of call for all practitioners of Judo whatever the ultimate goal or ambition. It is this Judo that best highlights and best encourages the principles of Kuzushi (balance breaking), Tsukuri (positioning), and Kake (execution), as well as the basic principles of movement (for comprehensive coverage of the principles of movement, see Itsutsu-no-Kata).</p>
<p>It is here I’m likely to divide opinions…..</p>
<p>“I don’t believe that ‘classical’, ‘efficient’ Judo is always the most effective”</p>
<p>So, what’s effective Judo? The objective in any contest is to win. Judo contests are not an exception to this rule. There are some techniques (namely leg-grabs and pick-ups) that do require a greater expenditure of energy and are therefore less efficient – but seemingly more effective, otherwise they would not be used.</p>
<p>So what are the possible reasons for outlawing individual techniques or even groups of techniques?</p>
<p>Safety issues? In some cases, the safety of athletes is compromised (e.g. Kani-Basami – scissors technique) In such cases, it is justified to ban those techniques in accordance with the founding ethos of “mutual welfare and benefit”. Are leg-grabbing techniques dangerous? I’ve neither seen nor been given any evidence to suggest so. This begs the question “Why such harsh penalties?” As non-dangerous infringements, surely a Shido for each incident would suffice. A Hansoku-make for a second offence seems harsh in the most extreme sense of the word. One is not disqualified for pulling the lapel across the chin a second time, and this can injure the opponent.</p>
<p>Are they inefficient? NO! Less efficient perhaps but clearly more effective often enough to have become such a major part of competitive Judo.</p>
<p>Do they lower the standard of Judo? This is the argument I’ve heard most often. Consistent successful use of any technique requires full understanding of the principles of Kuzushi, Tsukuri, and Kake as well as an understanding of the principles of movement. Often, this might be subconscious understanding (this is true for all techniques) but it is understanding nevertheless.</p>
<p>I’ve always thought that it is the different styles of Judo that makes it so entertaining. It means that every competitor is forced to continuously adapt and evolve their Judo to stay on top. Surely this only results in increased understanding of each basic Judo principle and increased Judo intelligence. How could anyone argue that this leads to a decline in standard?</p>
<p>Should we split Judo in two? NO! Absolutely not! As I mentioned at the start, I think that everyone should start by learning what I refer to as ‘efficient’ Judo because it better highlights the important principles that will ease and support long-term Judo development. For those that do choose to compete, I think they should have access to additional classes that teach ‘effective’ Judo i.e. learning how to win. To re-iterate, learning how to win should be the next step up after learning efficient Judo.</p>
<p>What I think is needed is for coaches to be able to distinguish between AND incorporate into their teaching BOTH efficient and effective Judo – rather than choose one as opposed to the other.</p>
<p>P.S.<br />
Of course, this whole argument neglects to include Luke&#8217;s point. Often the initial attack can be so subtle that only the fighters can feel it. It would require a referee with an incredible knowledge of Judo movement, technique, and principles to always be able to recognise each and every situation that would allow leg-grabbing techniques. Surely a feint will count &#8211; otherwise we will soon see fighters feinting in order to bait the opponent to commit a leg-grabbing infringment!?! More tactics like this will result in even less tv friendly Judo.</p>
<p>(Just my opinions)</p>
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		<title>By: Lance Wicks</title>
		<link>http://extricate.org/2009/11/19/nothing-belo-the-belt-proposed-judo-rule-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-234</link>
		<dc:creator>Lance Wicks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 19:41:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://extricate.org/?p=340#comment-234</guid>
		<description>I was listening to www.thejudopodcast.com today and they discuss briefly the rule changes and make some interesting points. They, like Luke raised the clash of styles point. They also talked about if we should allow Judo to evolve as it has been or try to push it back/forward with radical rule changes.
I worry a lot about the two shidos and out rule. Why do we need a new penalty system for a single offence, which arguably is a minor infraction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was listening to <a href="http://www.thejudopodcast.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.thejudopodcast.com</a> today and they discuss briefly the rule changes and make some interesting points. They, like Luke raised the clash of styles point. They also talked about if we should allow Judo to evolve as it has been or try to push it back/forward with radical rule changes.<br />
I worry a lot about the two shidos and out rule. Why do we need a new penalty system for a single offence, which arguably is a minor infraction.</p>
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		<title>By: Luke Preston</title>
		<link>http://extricate.org/2009/11/19/nothing-belo-the-belt-proposed-judo-rule-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-233</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke Preston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:11:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://extricate.org/?p=340#comment-233</guid>
		<description>Good post Tristan
Rule Changes will be a nightmare for referees
What constitutes a combination? Is an ashi-waza enough as initial attack if so what is deemed a good enough ashi-waza? Must you break balance for the initial attack to be deemed sincere? How long a pause between first and second attack-none, split second, 1 second?
What about sode entries. Can I attack with one armed sode and switch straight to kata-guruma-from one point of view it could be deemed direct below the belt attack from another it could be deemed a combination. How much of a turn in does my opponent need to do to be deemed a real attack so I can counter with a pick up?-A feint, half a turn in, a full turn in?
NEW RULES-not thought through properly, rushed in and may become a nightmare to referee fairly. As for two shidos and out if that is kept in it will be even more of a disgrace than it being trialled at a junior world&#039;s in the first place. Of course we will adapt and find ways through/around the rules. Clash of styles was often the best matches in the past-Russia v Japan for eg. Shame I think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post Tristan<br />
Rule Changes will be a nightmare for referees<br />
What constitutes a combination? Is an ashi-waza enough as initial attack if so what is deemed a good enough ashi-waza? Must you break balance for the initial attack to be deemed sincere? How long a pause between first and second attack-none, split second, 1 second?<br />
What about sode entries. Can I attack with one armed sode and switch straight to kata-guruma-from one point of view it could be deemed direct below the belt attack from another it could be deemed a combination. How much of a turn in does my opponent need to do to be deemed a real attack so I can counter with a pick up?-A feint, half a turn in, a full turn in?<br />
NEW RULES-not thought through properly, rushed in and may become a nightmare to referee fairly. As for two shidos and out if that is kept in it will be even more of a disgrace than it being trialled at a junior world&#8217;s in the first place. Of course we will adapt and find ways through/around the rules. Clash of styles was often the best matches in the past-Russia v Japan for eg. Shame I think.</p>
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		<title>By: Tris</title>
		<link>http://extricate.org/2009/11/19/nothing-belo-the-belt-proposed-judo-rule-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-231</link>
		<dc:creator>Tris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:54:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://extricate.org/?p=340#comment-231</guid>
		<description>Thanks Lance.  I would certainly be interested to hear what consultation (if any) happened with players and coaches on this matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Lance.  I would certainly be interested to hear what consultation (if any) happened with players and coaches on this matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Lance Wicks</title>
		<link>http://extricate.org/2009/11/19/nothing-belo-the-belt-proposed-judo-rule-changes/comment-page-1/#comment-230</link>
		<dc:creator>Lance Wicks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://extricate.org/?p=340#comment-230</guid>
		<description>Great post Tris. 
As I&#039;ve said elsewhere the process and reasoning behind these changes concern me much much more. I hate leg grabs, but if they work is that not reason to keep them? Maximum effeciency and all that. 
Defending the purity of Judo is all well and good, but Judo by design is supposed to be democratic, so the lack of process and ryu style decree of what is and is not good Judo is to me against the spirit of Judo... Hansoku Make!
Lance</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post Tris.<br />
As I&#8217;ve said elsewhere the process and reasoning behind these changes concern me much much more. I hate leg grabs, but if they work is that not reason to keep them? Maximum effeciency and all that.<br />
Defending the purity of Judo is all well and good, but Judo by design is supposed to be democratic, so the lack of process and ryu style decree of what is and is not good Judo is to me against the spirit of Judo&#8230; Hansoku Make!<br />
Lance</p>
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